ihmsa forums

Just thought any of you FFL holders would like to see my exchange with GB about FFLs MUST send copies of their licenses to unlicensed sellers. They pointed me to and ATF rule that does not even mention the receiving licensee providing any information to an unlicensed sender. Other ATF rules are specific between licensed dealers. It was pointed out to me that an unlicensed seller does not have to include a photocopy of a drivers license so that did correct me. Just thought any of you dealers here may want to see GBs position. Interesting discussion.

5/27/2014 11:52:35 PM - GBSupport1012
We are stating the requirements of the law. The sending seller is not required by law (as cited) to provide ID. and the receiving FFL for the buyer MUST send a COPY to the seller prior to shipment. The law does not make a distinction between a seller that is a licensee and a seller that is not. We will not entertain additional discussion on the matter.
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5/27/2014 10:26:38 PM - Anthony Shultz
Whoa here. You just pointed out the ATF rule that relieves the sending non-licensee from including a photocopy of their driver's license but you just said "prudent for the unlicensed individual to follow the same verification requirements". Now which is it? The receiving licensee has more at stake, losing their license and jail time if they don't provide a copy to a sending licensee but we are back to my same issue. There is NO ATF requirement for the receiving licensee to provide a COPY of their FFL to a unlicensed sender. Your very own comments are contradictory. Tell you what, I greatly appreciate our communications on this issue but see you are getting yourself confused. I guess this is really a non-issue until some unlicensed person gets in trouble following your posted instructions but I'm sure GB is insulated from any legal issues should that situation arise. Probably the most that will happen is a sale will be cancelled if an unlicensed seller refuses to accept just the FFL EZ Check info to ship a gun and refuses to use a licensed dealer to ship a gun. This has been very informative. Thanks!!!
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5/27/2014 10:10:59 PM - GBSupport1012
"The law does not speak to the verification requirements of the non-licensee. In the absence of such instruction it is reasonable and prudent for the unlicensed individual to follow to the same verification requirements as the licensee. "

That means that if you are a non licensee you need to follow the same instructions given to the licensee and that is to provide a copy of the FFL where the item is going to.

Remember, we are professionals. Don't try this at home.
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5/27/2014 9:44:08 PM - Anthony Shultz
Thank you for pointing me to the AFT rules. I stand corrected about a non-licensee needing to enclose a photocopy of their drivers license. HOWEVER the ATF reference also does NOT stipulate that a receiving licensee MUST provide a copy of their FFL to the sending non-licensee so I guess we are both right. My concern is your published policy telling non-licensed sellers to obtain a copy of the receiving dealer's FFL. The ATF reference in not way mentions that requirement. Obviously someone there is reading between the lines and our discussion is not going to change anything. I just think it is more ironic that you have pointed me to the ATF rules and you still don't get what I am saying. I do thank you again for providing a great venue for all gun lovers to share our love of firearms.
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5/27/2014 9:29:33 PM - GBSupport1012
We have spent a lot of time consulting with the ATF and a LOT of dollars on attorney fees. Here is where you are WRONG.
Please refer to http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/n ... 012-11.pdf

bottom left of page #5
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5/27/2014 9:07:30 PM - Anthony Shultz
I'm sorry but your answer does not make any sense. The issue here is whether the receiving licensee should/must send an actual copy of their FFL to the unlicensed sender. The unlicensed sender MUST include a photo id when sending to a licensee. All the unlicensed sender needs is proof the receiving party has a valid FFL and that can be verified by the FFL EZ Check. You are totally missing the point about a receiving licensee MUST send a COPY of their FFL to the unlicensed sender. WRONG! ATF says the receiving licensee must provide proof of their FFL and shipping information which again can be obtained by the FFL EZ Check. I appreciate GB and have used it many times to buy guns. Thank you for that service. In the meantime my dealer will continue to abide by verbal instructions obtained from the ATF and only provide copies of their FFL to other licensees. You have totally not responded to the issue I am addressing. No further answer is necessary. We will just have to agree to disagree. Thanks.
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5/27/2014 8:01:56 PM - GBSupport1012
We are not "wrong". The law does not speak to the verification requirements of the non-licensee. In the absence of such instruction it is reasonable and prudent for the unlicensed individual to follow to the same verification requirements as the licensee.
We have been over this with ATF and their legal office since we started 15 yrs ago. Our lawyers were in the same building as their office at one time. Feel free to write to them for an opinion. Many have, the answer is always the same.
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5/27/2014 6:16:12 PM - Anthony Shultz
You are WRONG stating a dealer MUST supply a COPY of their FFL to private sellers. This ATF states they must supply their business INFORMATION to the private seller and this is accomplished by using the FFL EZ Check. The ATF it telling dealers NOT to give copies of their licenses to private individuals. This is NOT a personal preference and you are spreading false information to private sellers. Dealers always trade FFL information but a private seller has no legal right to receiver copies of FFLs. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check out the latest ATF rules which state FFL "INFORMATION" only NOT copies of licenses. This is a big dis-service to your private sellers. Read the rules VERY CAREFULLY, this is government language and is not easy to understand. Please call the ATF and get clarification before posting false information.

My friend has an FFL, and I use him to transfer all my guns to me. He once routinely gave me a copy of his FFL to send to sellers. When the ATF came for a routine visit, it was somehow brought up that he gave out copies of his FFL in these circumstances, and the agent had a fit. Said to never give out copies. The problem arises when a seller refuses to use the FFL checklist on line, and simply will not ship without a copy in hand. I'm talking about private sellers here, not other FFL holders.
Melvin

Melvin, ATF told my dealer the same thing. No FFL copies to unlicensed people. GB responses to my inquiry really don't make sense and they continue to cause confusion to unlicensed sellers. At least the ATF is telling all the dealers the correct information. Oh well, I tried.

Well if I had an FFL you would be the last person I would send a copy to!!! Just wanted to let people know what the ATF is telling many dealers around the country and the confusion that GB is causing. ATF doesn't want copies of FFLs in unlicensed hands.

I recently sent a Dan Wesson to the DW plant in Norwich, NY to have a 22lr to 22 mag conversion done. They told me to ship it FedEx. I went to FedEx and they told me I needed their FFL. I called DW and they wouldn't send me one because I did not have an FFL. After a lot of time and reading, I went to UPS because they did not require the FFL. As long as the gun was going to a corporation or manufacturer, UPS was cool with it. Back to the point of this discussion, DW would not give a private citizen their FFL. The dealer who I go through when I make DW purchases gives me his FFL to send to private sellers.